About Ukrainian Mariupol that survived in 2015 and what it has become today, about the son's service in the Armed Forces of Ukraine and forecasts in connection with a possible escalation of the conflict in the east of the country. Read about this and much more in a long interview with Vadym Boichenko for the Financial Times. Due to the intentional use of inaccurate translations of excerpts from the interview by Russian propagandists, here is the full text and audio recording of the conversation with the FT.
FT: You became a mayor after the start of the war in 2015. Tell us how much the city has changed since then.
The conflict in 2015 took place on the outskirts of Shidnyi district, and therefore the city was under the fire. We felt this anxiety, what is called war today. Then the Normandy format and the Minsk agreements proved that the point of collision moved 20 km away from our city. After that Mariupol began to live again. But we got a challenge, new Mariupol residents began to come to our city – they are IDPs. We received three waves of such new Mariupol residents who arrived and reached our city. And 100,000 new Mariupol residents joined our community, which has a population of 465,000. Today our city is inhabited by people from Donetsk, Yenakiieve, Makiyivka, Luhansk and other cities. The residents of Shyrokino moved to our city. The suburbs of our city also came to us. We got another challenge, what to do with these people who come to our city, and here, by the way, was the help of our European partners, who built 8 support centers with us. We provided legal and social assistance, helped with employment, helped children to go to schools, kindergartens and so on. Together with our partners we overcame it. Then we started developing the main document of our city - the city strategy. And we asked ourselves, all the residents, the question of what we should do, who we are as a city. And we developed a mission, a vision of our city. Who are we? We are like a showcase of the restored Ukrainian Donbas. Then we felt that the economy of our city is starting to recover a bit and I think that the main reform that has taken place in Ukraine is decentralization. But here is the thing. The reform is not about money. It's about opportunities. Why do I think so, and why do I emphasize it so much? Because cities have always had money, but cities have not been given the opportunity to spend it. The state gave access to this money. We set ourselves the task of working hard enough for the city to develop economically. We have developed such a formula for Mariupol effect, 60/40, where 60% is a component of operational tasks, goals, maintenance of our community as a whole, and 40% is investment. The budget continues to be filled every year. We created new work places. We created utilities, that maintain our city, repair roads. A large enterprise that today serves the population in terms of transport was created. 4,000 work places were created in 5 years. We started investing in construction, recreating social facilities: schools, kindergartens, hospitals. And in this direction we have also created 6,500 work places. In other words, we competed with the main player in the labor market, the Metinvest Group companies, and in a good sense, they started competing with us. Compete in wages and we saw it in the budget. Today the city budget is 180 million dollars.
In what way was the budget formed? The budget was 5 times less. If today we have 5 billion [UAH], and it is 180 million dollars, it was about 720 million UAH. But we must understand that the dollar exchange rate was different, and now it is 28. That is, if we compare the dollar equivalent, in 2018 we came to the point where we recreated the budget to 100 million dollars. And then the dollar began to rise, because the city's economy was back.
FT: Questions concerning the security. How much are you afraid of the scenario of a full-scale war from Russia? And how much better is the city protected today than it was in 2014?
We must understand that during this time a lot of things have been changed. The first is that Volodymyr Putin and those who aimed to seize our state of Ukraine, annex Crimea, part of Donetsk and Luhansk regions, lost time and it is impossible to do it today. And I'm ready to explain why. First, during this time a modern powerful army was recreated, today my son is serving there, and I believe that today it will be very difficult to capture Ukraine militarily. We have 200,000 troops and a professional army. Speaking in a professional military language, it is necessary that the one who is advancing outweighs those who are defending 5 times. Russia as a whole mobilizes its troops and goes to Ukraine. We understand that this is impossible. The second thing is that if we looked at the mood of the people in Ukraine in 2014 and today, the mood has changed. And Mr. Putin is also "guilty" of this. Because he did everything for this to make Ukraine be Ukraine that we see today and I "appreciate" him for that. We became Ukraine, all of us, without exception. And the third thing, I believe, that a full-fledged attack on Ukraine is impossible, because if it mobilizes an army of about a million, Russia itself will rebel against Mr. Putin. Therefore, I believe that the war today is heard only on TV and we hear somewhere from publications, online publications, somewhere political scientists are discussing this topic lively, but I do not think that there is such a serious threat to our city.
And we also communicate with our military every day. And I get text messages every morning. Going back to 2014, I received reports of 100-150 shellings in the direction of Mariupol. Today it is zero. There were 150, and there aren’t now.
We also communicate with the military and do not hear that there is a growing military component of our "eastern friends" on the line of contact.
I believe that today… only our politicians are catching up a little bit with this [situation].
FT: Our politicians, American forces?
Everybody. I think something is going on, in terms of negotiations, some agreements, future.
FT: Do they flex their muscles?
Yes, they flex their muscles. Putin, I think, this is my personal opinion, wants them to agree. Therefore, he threatens to seize Ukraine. I think he understands that this is impossible.
So, everything is ok, the city is developing. We have developed a Strategy for up to 2030. And the Strategy is a seaside city with an ocean of opportunities.
FT: Has the Ukrainian army been increased near Mariupol?
In many times. It has increased professionally. I personally know. I can't say how many soldiers are here.
FT: So can you give a couple of examples. That is, is there an increased number of military?
Prior to that, there were not as many in Mariupol as there are today. There are in different directions - it's marines and maritime board guards. A very strong National Guard.
FT: So how long has this increase happened? For the last year, month?
This increase has occurred over the last five years. And if we add, today the Security Service of Ukraine and the Main Directorate of the National Police of our Donetsk region are located in Mariupol. The army, intelligence service - that is everything that defends Ukraine today, defends Mariupol. They are well prepared technically.
FT: Sorry, but we haven't been in the city long enough, we got on the morning train, but we did not see them.
They are there. Why do they need to be in the city? They have to protect us. There are units that rotate and serve here in Mariupol, but in general they are there.
FT: When you say there, what do you mean?
Shyrokino and beyond. The whole line of contact. There is everything that is necessary for them to settle there and defend our state. And they did it in 14-15 years. Three lines of defense were built. We built such certain conditions that also guaranteed the security of our military. We can come to one of these units.
FT: Does your son serve? If so, where?
Today he provides maritime guard, marines. At the age of 14 he entered the Military Academy, for the third year he served in the Armed Forces of Ukraine, senior lieutenant…
FT: Will you get the information from the military, if Russia takes more [decisive steps] and they will try to capture Mariupol?
I think that if something happens, the territories that are occupied today will be more heated ...
FT: Don't you expect more?
No.
FT: And why?
This is going to be the third world war then.
FT: Russia has informed us all today that it is mobilizing its military south…
I understand…
FT: Russia is reportedly selling its military south today. Doesn't it make you upset?
He irritates not only Ukraine, he irritates the whole civilized world. That's what he does. The United States sat down to negotiate, Europe sat down to negotiate with him. But all these agreements are about Russia's victory. He says that Europe should be like the United States, that they should not deploy or build [their military potential] and so on, but he grew his potential by capturing Ukrainian Crimea. He broke, and now he says you will stop. And what? You have already done it, you have already violated it. There were agreements and Russia gave guarantees to Ukraine when it gave up [nuclear] weapons and why doesn’t he fulfill these agreements? If we had nuclear weapons, would he seize Crimea? The whole world needs to revolve around the country. If we talk about security, and security is not only Ukraine, it concerns Europe and the world as a whole. Because that's where he [Putin] should stop. Therefore, it will be impossible to agree further.
FT: Can the tragedy of 2015 be repeated [Shelling of Shidnyi]
I think not. Because the line of contact has already been moved away from our borders 20 kilometers from the city. Therefore, if they use these weapons, which are prohibited by the Minsk agreements, which are not on the line of contact, they will have to use these weapons from the side of Russia. In general, not only Mariupol may be in danger, but our whole country will be on the line of fire. It will be a war crime. If this happens, there will be many victims and someone must be responsible for it. As it was in Shidnyi district…. It was a war crime [of Russia]. I think we should be responsible for that.
FT: And what about the Crimea without [military] badges?
It is clear that this is him [Putin], where these people came from. By the way, these people were also in Mariupol, but there was no such support that was received in the Crimea. There was no betrayal. Our part, the military guard stopped this situation which could be in Mariupol. There was an assault. These unknown guys who came, wanted to capture our part, but received resistance. There was a fight and they left. Because there was no betrayal. And here there was no support in the city, so they left.
FT: We hear what you're saying, but we walked around the city today and interviewed people. And part of the population says that these shellings were made by Russia. The other part says it's Ukraine.
At that time, Russian propaganda worked quite well in 2014-2015. It should be understood that there are witnesses who are ready to testify from which town near Mariupol these shellings took place. It should be understood that the trajectory of these ridges was from the direction of Novoazovsk, which was occupied. There is an opinion that several Mariupol residents believe that this was done by the non-armed forces of the Russian Federation. But I believe in facts we have and the information we received. [They say] That only the military did it. Someone gave this weapon, someone received it and someone else gave the command to use this weapon. And before that there is an audio recording that our Security Service of Ukraine has. We understand who said what at the time.
FT: Many years have passed. Most of the city still believes that…
Not most of the city. Sociology says that today there are certain groups that no longer support some kind of groups and so on. I think we need to work [on this]. Now it is a Ukrainian city. We have to work because they see that the city is developing. Because we are in Ukraine today. Because here the Ukrainian flag is understood also there that nothing happens there. In Donetsk. There is no curfew here, there is one in Donetsk. There are music festivals here, in 2021 we were the Great Cultural Capital of Ukraine. There was a good mood, but there is no such thing. There is a modern transport here. We are building a water treatment plant, repairing and building new roads, repairing and opening kindergartens, schools and hospitals. If you ask the residents of the city today, Mariupol is developing.
FT: What should be done and how to prepare the city of Mariupol for a possible Russian invasion?
What to do? More development is needed in Mariupol. To do this, in 2021 a very good Strategy for the development of Donetsk and Luhansk regions was developed. The document was developed by the British and they believe that all revenues from local taxes should remain in the city. And that gives us two development budgets. That we developed our city twice as fast. And I believe that this is the main weapon that destroys Russian propaganda. You will not see today in Russia what you saw today in the city. We see Moscow, St. Petersburg, but other cities have no development in Russia. Why? Because it is very expensive to keep the army. Therefore, he needs to reduce his army and invest in Russia. I believe that Putin should follow the example of Mariupol on how to develop cities.
FT: Indeed, in recent years, I see that the city has changed. We see that the road was made from…
Mariupol-Zaporizhzhia.
FT: Yes, yes.
The president made [the road] in 2019. President Volodymyr Zelensky made the Investment Forum in 2019. And he made the road to this forum. In three months he built 220 km of roads. The city is developing. I believe that Mariupol is just beginning its journey.
FT: Thank you.
Follow the link for an audio interview -https://youtu.be/4G04Na9FG_k